RecklessTim

Wow, who pissed in your wheaties today? :

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Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.

White2000GT

Well Tim, I think we just found something you and I actually agree on!
What's the deal Lemon? Are we not allowed to debate stuff and state opinions on a public forum anymore? Seeing as how I am a parent of three children I believe I have every damn right in the world to comment on this subject. If that bothers you then don't read the posts.

White2000GT

You do have a point there Tim. But books like Penthouse Forums and The Kama Sutra SHOULD be censored and have no place at all in a school library. But, there is a huge difference between pornographic material and Harry Potter. I think the former are best kept at my house!

RecklessTim

See, you spoke too soon... WE DON"T AGREE!


it should be kept at my house.

__________________
Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.

Darkstar

Let me intervene boys...no need to fight over such smut...


....Let me take it off your hands ...

White2000GT

Oooh.. you are a saucy little flirt Darkie!

And Tim, you are just impossible sometimes. Impossible I tell you. haha!

lemon

no one. i dont eat wheaties.

it dont bother me. what does bother me is everyone pushing their ideals on everyone else. let those who read books chose what books they wish to read. if not, you are no better than a communist country restricting which books it allows its citizens to read.

instead of pushing your adjenda on your kids, let them figure out shit for themselves.

if you do not agree with what i say, you do not have to read my posts.

RecklessTim

All civilized societies have rules and boundries. We just happen to be discussing whether or not this is a good rule to have.

__________________
Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.

lemon

thus my "seemingly pissed in wheaties" post. in other words - theres no point in defining rules like the one that is up for discussion. its gonna get broken. thats why i said your barking up a leaf-less tree.

SilentEyz

Tim,

I agree there has to be a line Drawn, There are many reading materials that are and are not apporpriate for Children.

But, This goes also back to point, Harry potter is Child appropriate, It was written specifically for Children.

So where and how do you draw a line when it comes to books, or any other reading material, that was made purposly, and is age recommended, But yet you have a few voices that feel it is wrong?

White2000GT

It's not that I agree or disagree with your posts Lemon. Fact is, there are many things we disagree on just like there are many things we agree on. It's just that your attitude lately has been more abrasive than standard Navy issue toilet paper. There really was no reason for you to tell us to "just shut up" and "get the fuck over it". Try using some tact.
Maybe you weren't talking directly to me, but let me set one thing straight. I have never and will never push any of my ideals onto my kids. Well, let me change that. I have told my son numerous times that if he ever hits a woman that I will personally kick the shit out of him. I mean, he's only 9 now, but I wanted to start instilling respect for women into him at an early age just like my dad did to me. But, other than that, I haven't pushed any of my ideals onto my kids. I am all about letting them make decisions for themselves. Just as I am all about letting them know that when they do make their own decisions that they better be prepared to pay the consequences if they make bad ones.
So come on Lemon, go back to being your cool self. We miss that Lemon.

lemon

so, is it ok for a woman to hit a man? because, it isnt fair to expect a man not to hit a woman if a woman can hit a man. gotta teach the ladies that it isnt ok for a woman to hit a man either, if you teach a man not to hit a woman. i think its fine, should the hit be warranted - and yes, the warranted part could be discussed, but thats for another time...

if you miss the "cool" lemon - well, your shit outa luck, cuz that lemon is taking a hiatus. but i will attempt, and as such there will be no garauntees, to slim down the tart posts.

getting back to the discussion at hand - the reason why i said to shut the fuck up, is because you - the collective group of parents, not necessarily you - are trying to shove ideals down the throat of your children that you believe in, and thats why we still have racism, eliteism, feelings of superiority over someone else, et cetera. and yes, it can be traced back to the choice of books you want your children to read. let them read the books they want to - if they have questions, answer them in an objective way, not biased. but just let the little hell-raisers read what they want to read, not what you want them to read.

lets set up a hypothetical timeline.

say you tell your child, you can only read <some set of books> and nothing else, because for one, you dont agree with the way the author portrayed something. or hell, in the case of the harry books, the whole series itself is something you dont agree with.
sounds great as a parent, but think in the terms of the childs mind. "why does mommy and daddy only want me reading snow white?" why cant i read <such and such>?" this creates doubt in the child, and as parents, i do not think you would want such a small thing creat such a big issue - it could grow to something that could eventually end up as a life and death situation ... or maybe you are lucky, and never have to answer such a question from your child. but then you instilled your values in your child. you didnt allow the child to form their own values.

oh sure, we can preach tolerance, but the kids see other ideals happening. dont kid yourself - no pun intended there. the kids will learn values just based off of your actions, not just what you tell them. one such value that your kids might learn is that its ok to lie, because while you said that the harry potter books may not be good for your child, you yourself are reading every single one. not a great value to learn. or maybe you dont read the books, but you form your choice based on what another parent said. while you may agree with how that parent parents their child, thats a damn shitty way to teach children - by using other's way of teaching.

ok - im confusing myself, and losing track of the point i wanted to make here - ill quit for now.

White2000GT

And I'm confused now too.

sharpies

You cannot help but influence how your child grows up. I tried really hard but it is impossible to remove all influences, even if you want too.

Children will grow up with the massed influences of their parents, school, peers & society (TV, radio etc). This is also one of the ways that cultural differences are maintained whether you see that as good or bad.

Allan

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"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."

-- Cardinal Bellarmine, during the trial of Galileo, 1615

RecklessTim

Lemon, wtf are you talking about hitting women for? It isn't even part of the discussion. You lost me on that one completely.

As far as not pushing your values and ideas onto your children... How the hell can you raise a child without rules, guidelines, restrictions and values? As a good parent, it is vital that you raise your child with your values and core beliefs. It's not a damn free for all. What if your 6 year old child says that it is against his beliefs to go to school anymore, are you going to say "Ok, I don't want to impose my values onto you" and let him stay home? If a parent doesn't instill their core family values and pass on the knowledge that they themselves learned growing up, then they will learn it from sources outside the home. It will be a shot in the dark whether they turn out to be a murderer or a missionary.
They are children for gods sake, they are not little adults that can make their own life decisions. If left to their own accord, they would never make it in the world. A parents job is to love, guide, discipline, direct, and to teach their child good morals and values. This isn't a job for anyone else but the parent and a child cannot learn these things alone. As far as telling your child not to read a certain book, then reading it yourself. Don't do it in front of them, just like sex... I don't want my son or daughter having sex yet, they know I do it. I drive, but don't let my kids drive. I go to bars and clubs, but not them. There is a list as long as my arm of things I will not let my children do that I do. That doesn't make me a bad or contradiction parent. They know the reasons why as children, they cannot do certain things yet. Soon they will be old enough to go and do what they please, where I will have no say in their lives. If I have done my job right, and taught them good morals and values, they will be better equiped to make some of the hard life decisions that they will face each day. If you let your kids run your life and do as they please setting their own agenda, once they go into the real world and have to make it on their own, they will have a hell of a hard time making it. I prefer to teach them now.

__________________
Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.