Fox Mulder

That Minor proclamation of independence has gotta make the post of the day thread!!!

valley

He's the first guy that came to mind when I read this thread too! The Civil War divided our country more than any other event in history...brother against brother, father against son...how can anyone overlook Lincoln?

Unless we are talking about presidents who lived in our own lifetime. I guess then our choice would be limited.

BadBoy@TheWheel

I would agree with the O/P to be honest, but the divisive wasn't as obvious with Clinton, that's because I personally have always believed that Hillary was running a "Republican Hate Campaign" behind closed doors.

Hillary has always exhibited a public.....I guess contempt for Repulican political views, primarily because she does fit the "Liberal Elitist" mold, she has the "You poor poor soul, who cannot make decisions for yourself, let me run your life for you with all this new administration" kinda mentality.

Make no bones about it, while Willie was philandering, Hillary was making a name for herself with the far left dems, and I think contributing to dividing the aisle.

Personally I liked Bill, I think he was endearing and easy to like, but Hillary was/is the apitomy of partisan politics, which has been established to be the fail.

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Minor Axis

When both Bill Clinton and Bush Jr showed up on the National scene, I did not know either of them. They both started with a neutral slate from my reference. And because I was pissed that Clinton who was President allowed his personal urges to get in the way of official business and opened himself up to more attacks, I was more than willing to give Bush a fair chance. But as I watched Bush in the debates, I realized he was an empty suit. Despite that, both of these Presidents showed up with a chance to do some good. Neither one showed up divisive based on being a Republican or a Democrat imo, although some (many?) might feel that way.

My understanding of a "divisive" President is one who by his actions after becoming President becomes divisive. I can easily name a list of divisive acts Bush has accomplished. Please enlighten me on the list of divisive acts of President Bill Clinton?

The point is with Clinton, was this divisiveness across the country or was it a campaign formulated by the Republican party to neutralize a sitting president? What crimes did Clinton walked into office with? Ken Star started with White Water but then turned it into an 8 year fishing trip and came up empty. You guys are quick to promote the facts. Besides Lewinski everything else is innuendo and rumor.

And you all don't want to admit it but in recent history it was the Republican Party and Newt who took todays politics into the gutter. I'm not saying there has never been fun and games in the past, but I was a kid in the 60's and 70's and I don't remember the political character assassination as it is going on today. The Parties were more civil in those days. Most character assassination type attacks I've seen come from the Republican Party. And for your viewing entertainment the 5 Most Vicious Attack Ads and guess what they are all coming to you from Republicans!

And if you believe Reagan did not know about Contra and don't think Ollie took the bullet for the boss, that's your choice. I believe the head guy sets the agenda for his Administration. Contra was too big of a project for the powers in control not to know.

Prior to 1993 in forums they would have been accusing me of being a die-hard Republican too. Clinton was the first Democratic President I have ever voted for, and I currently think the Democrats are a better choice. In your eyes I'm a Democrat, but I'm not. If the Republican party changes their current strips and puts up someone palatable, I'd be willing to vote for them again.

BTW based on actions, Bush and the Republican Party deserve the country's wrath. There is no way to spin your way out of it.

I'm not sure as that was wrapped up in the Civil War, issues that preceded Lincoln.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Fox Mulder

1. Go ahead and name the list of "divisive" acts.

2. Tell us why "divisive" in your mind is necessarily negative. In other words, why can it not be a "positive?"

Strauss

Yeah but Lincoln didn't attempt to have a meeting with the Southern leaders to defuse the situation. He engaged in provocative speeches and alleged that the South was massing weapons of destruction and then he invaded without reason. Divisive no matter how you spin it.

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Color is the deed and sufferings of light.......Goethe

Where there is one religion, there is despotism; where there are two, civil war. Let there be thirty religions and they will live together in peace........Voltaire

Minor Axis

Really he invaded? Your not referring to Ft. Sumter are you? I believe the South fired the first shots but this is in no way trying to engage with you.

You speak and I jump? "Mulder engagement" is currently off.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Fox Mulder

I figured as much--one of the most common "tricks" people use to bolster the unsupportable positions is to say, "I could name a 1000 things such and such did, blah, blah, blah" when in reality the person has no facts at all. You provided a myriad of generalized non specific allegation on a whole host of subjects, never being able to back any of it up with facts--this thread is no different.

Fox Mulder

Yeah--besides making a very decsive decision (to abolish slavery) he also used his war powers to suspend civil liberties, suspended the writ of habeus corpus and spent money without congressional authorization, and imprisoned 18,000 suspected Confederate sympathizers without trial.

Seriously--can you imagine if today's liberals were around at the time of Lincoln? Their heads would probably explode because they'd be so torn up as to whether to support Lincoln and the move to abolish slavery or to villainize him for trampling the Constitution!

Thing is liberals won't ever consider villainizing Lincoln even though he by far was the most divisive president in history whether you go by how many citizens he pissed off or whether you go by how many "abuses" of his office he was guilty of (and that's "abuses" by the liberal definition!) because he abolished slavery. He's "untouchable." The liberal media also loves to conveniently leave out the 200 year history of Democratic racism went on all the way to the 1970s before they suddenly became the party of the minority (can you say guilty conscience?) . And the irony is that no one single political unit has done more to keep Blacks enslaved as Democrats have done for the past 30 years.

And this is why I asked Minor whether he would ever consider divisive conduct as postivie because Lincoln, unlike todays Liberals (Clinton and Obama are perfect examples), had the balls to make unpolular decisions and to do what he thought was right regardless of whether it made him popular or not. His divisiveness was a great thing and absolutely necessary at the time.

Minor Axis

Bush's record is well documented and just about every thing he has done has been divisive. If you don't know, go google it. I don't feel the need to repeat it for you. You guys must have had a real laugh when he described himself as the compassionate conservative.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Fox Mulder

Most decisions made by a President will be unpopular with some group or faction and most of them unpopular with a significant percent of the population. That's what you can't grasp--that making unpopular decisions is what makes a great leader. Clinton did nothing unless he believed it would enhance his popularity--that why for example he didn't take care of Bin Laden when he was offered him on a silver platter. Its also why he ignored Hussein for 8 years (aside from lobbing a missile or two at a drug factory to take the public's attention off his blow job).

I'd still like to see your list of things Bush did that were so divisive.

Minor Axis

I'm still waiting for someone to throw out some documented examples of why Bill Clinton was a divisive president? No more of this "if there is smoke, there is fire" please.

You heard it here, Bush's unpopular decisions is the makings of a great leader! Or are you not saying Bush is a great leader? If this has something to do with being divisive, maybe you'd care to elaborate on Clinton ignoring Hussein for 8 years... btw, Bush's handling and engineering an offensive war was number 1 on the divisive list. Your not suggesting that Clinton should have been the one to invade are you?

From The Raw Story 2005-
The U.S.-led coalition in Iraq dropped far more bombs during the sunset of Bill Clinton’s presidency than under President George W. Bush in the run-up to war in Iraq, RAW STORY has found.

Between 1999 and 2001, the U.S. and British-led air forces in Iraq dropped 1.3 million pounds of bombs in response to purported violations of the no-fly zones and anti-aircraft fire from Saddam Hussein. The details of the bombings, provided by the British ministry of defense to parliament in February 2002, markedly revise a picture painted by critics of Bush’s airstrikes and that of a piece RAW STORY carried last week.

Speaking of war, the Bush Administration has consistently talked up veterans, but have either not supported them or moved to cut federal spending on them whether it be for proper gear, or medical health after they come home from war. Actually sending them into combat without proper gear actually sounds like individuals were considered expendable.

From Sept 2006-
This week, Vice President Cheney and Defense Secretary Rumsfeld will appear at the 107th annual convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Las Vegas, where Cheney gave the keynote address today. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Veterans Affairs Secretary Jim Nicholson should use their time at the convention to explain why the Bush Administration has slashed veterans' benefits and refused to act swiftly to protect the privacy of their personal information. Bush Republicans in the House of Representatives have also fought Democratic efforts to end an unfair tax that affects 60,000 widows "whose husbands died of causes relating to their military service" and who "lose out on thousands of dollars a year in survivor benefits because of a law that dates from the 1970's."

Then there is Bush's environmental record of over 300 crimes against nature as documented by The Sierra Club (of which I am a proud member). I automatically know you poo poo the environment, so role out your page wide LOLs but the environment is not just darter snails and owls, it's you and me, our water, our air, and the environment we live in all degraded because the environment is a commodity to be used up and make profits on.

I will clarify in advance I don't consider these items as legal punishable crimes, but they do reveal a disregard for the environment we live in. Here is the first 10 on the list:
JANUARY 20, 2001
White House freezes all rules set at end of Clinton term–including tougher ones for raw sewage

JANUARY 20, 2001
Bush proposes opening Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling

FEBRUARY 12, 2001
Energy Department puts off enforcing new efficiency standards for air conditioners

FEBRUARY 15, 2001
EPA delays new rule protecting wetlands from mining and development

MARCH 7, 2001
Fish and Wildlife Service withdraws report calling for protection of endangered salmonids

MARCH 9, 2001
Bush appoints oil and mining lobbyist as deputy secretary of Interior

MARCH 13, 2001
Bush reneges on campaign promise to reduce carbon dioxide emissions

MARCH 16, 2001
Bush administration refuses to defend in court rule protecting 58 million acres of wild forest

MARCH 20, 2001
Bush withdraws proposed stricter limits on arsenic in drinking water

MARCH 28, 2001
Bush administration rejects Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change

APRIL 9, 2001
Bush budget proposal cuts $500 million from EPA

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Alien Allen

Those don't look like divisive issues. Just a matter of disagreement. I don't think of having differing opinions as necessarily having to be divisive. But if you think those issues are then I think we have lowered the bar.

Minor Axis

You and Fox both bring up good points. How would you define divisive? In the realm of politics I'd agree that any decision you make as President is going to piss someone off. So in the context of being labeled the "most divisive" President, I would assume that the definition would be who, by their leadership decisions, is polarizing the most people, dividing the country into those "for" and those "against".

You know where I'm coming from and it's an easy choice for me to name Bush Jr as the most divisive. Clinton came into office dogged by some personal enemies and the Rabid Righties.

But I just don't see any decisions he made as Commander in Chief that polarized the country. Things were too good then. The only ones gnashing their teeth were the hard core conservatives because a Democrat was occupying the White House.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

gLing

Axis from what I can tell any decision Bush makes that doesn't go along with liberal views is considered divisive by you.

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