Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!!

Fox Mulder · 08-13-2008, 02:03 AM

Borrowed this from Strauss in another forum!

Quote:

Rewards of Wisdom

As McCain's stand on the surge shows, experience cannot be separated from judgment.
by Matthew Continetti

In January 2007, with Iraq in flames and Democrats set to take over Congress, President Bush had two options. He could side with Senator Barack Obama and begin a gradual drawdown of American troops in Iraq, leaving the Iraqis to a grim fate and dealing a serious and consequential blow to American interests in the Middle East and beyond. Or he could side with Senator John McCain and change strategies, sending additional troops to Iraq in an effort to secure the population and assist the Iraqis in their fight against al Qaeda and the Iranian-backed Shiite militias--the so-called "surge" policy. This latter option was the one Bush eventually adopted, of course. And for that, he deserves the thanks of Americans, of Iraqis, and indeed the world.

The surge is over. The last of the reinforcements sent to Iraq have returned home. The Iraq those troops leave behind is an utterly transformed place. Since their first offensive operations began in July 2007, overall attacks have been cut by 80 percent. The sectarian bloodshed staining Iraq in 2006 and 2007 has almost entirely abated. American casualties have fallen dramatically, with U.S. combat deaths in Iraq in July 2008 the lowest monthly total since the war began more than five years ago. Al Qaeda in Iraq has been routed, and the global al Qaeda organization faces what CIA director Michael Hayden calls a "near-strategic defeat" in Iraq. Shiite radical Moktada al-Sadr remains "studying" in Iran, while his militia has been cut to pieces by U.S.
and Iraqi troops. The Iraqi army is progressing admirably; more than two-thirds of Iraqi combat battalions now take the lead in operations in their areas.

<SNIP>

The Iraqi government has met almost all of the "benchmarks" the U.S. Congress set for it, and, although a national hydrocarbons law remains elusive, the country's oil wealth is being divided among its 18 provinces. That wealth is increasing dramatically as security has allowed oil production to return to prewar levels (and as prices have soared). The major Sunni political bloc has rejoined the Shiite-dominated government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. The Awakening, which began in Sunni-dominated Anbar province in the fall of 2006, has blossomed into a trans-sectarian, national, grassroots political movement. And Iraq is busy preparing for provincial and national elections that will further accelerate reconciliation by broadening and deepening the political participation of all the major groups.

<SNIP>

Had Bush listened to Obama and decided to retreat last year, not only would the progress we see today not have occurred, but it is quite likely that the situation in Iraq would be much worse than it was at the end of 2006. Bereft of U.S. security, Iraqis would have turned to the nearest sectarian militia for protection from the widening civil war. An empowered and belligerent Iran would have moved to fill the vacuum America left behind, thus allowing the mullahs in Tehran to pursue unchecked their policy of "Lebanonization" in Iraq. And Al Qaeda in Iraq would have continued its barbaric killing spree, using the departing American soldiers as a recruitment tool, evidence of American weakness and unreliability. It would not be al Qaeda but the United States facing a "near strategic defeat" on Osama bin Laden's chosen front. And a defeated America would have led to a more dangerous world.

<SNIP>

One of the chief lessons of the surge is that we are not powerless. Policy matters. The previous policy in Iraq was failing; Bush tried a new policy that is working. Another lesson is that, in this era of "soft" or "smart" power, force is still an effective means of achieving strategic goals. Those who argued that violence in Iraq would not stop until political accords were reached ignored the lessons of the first years of the war, when the Iraqis made great gains politically at a time of worsening violence. It was thought then, too, that the political gains would result in a more secure Iraq. Not so. When violence careened out of control in 2006, the Iraqi government was powerless to stop it. "Soft" power was useless. Military might was required to staunch the bleeding. And only when the violence was brought under control through the application of deadly force could politics resume and Iraq make its first real steps toward normality.

<SNIP>

Obama not only lacks experience and judgment; he lacks the capacity to admit he made a mistake and is therefore willing to risk everything the surge has achieved. Obama got it wrong when the stakes were greatest, and on the central issue of our time. Why on earth would we choose to reward him for it?

Rewards of Wisdom

Now imagine if Obama had been President instead of Bush (or McCain)--we would have turned tail and run and every death in Iraq would have been in vein--instead, we surged and now Iraq is well on its way to an ally and a Democracy and a force of stability badly needed in the middle east along with Israel.

Why in the world would anyone want Obama to be in the position of making these kinds of decisions with 180 days of experience?

Minor Axis · 08-13-2008, 09:51 AM

Although you imagine the ability to map out an alternate history, we have no idea what state Iraq would be in today without the surge because the surge was not the only thing that happened. There was the “Anbar awakening” in which Sunni tribal leaders turned against al-Qaida in Iraq, there was the relatively new tactic of the U.S. Army directly negotiating with tribal leaders, the success of Iraq’s government in confronting Sunni and Shiite militias, and the cease fire between the Iraqi government and Shiite militia leader Muqtada al-Sadr.

If you are trying to support McCain's foreign policy experience maybe you can address why he supported this offensive disaster of a War from the start? I am very tired of tough talk from leaders prone to starting wars.

Then there was McCain walking through Bagdad in 2007 accompanied by 100 soldiers and 5 attack helos, dressed in body armor talking about how Bagdad had really changed for the better because he could walk freely through a neighborhood. Even I had to chuckle at that.

LA Times, strategy of a savvy diplomat? McCain's Bad G8 Summit Call

Zorak · 08-13-2008, 09:54 AM

The deaths are already in vein. They're dead and gone and killing more Iraqi's won't suddenly make it all worthwhile.

BadBoy@TheWheel · 08-13-2008, 10:01 AM

The senior ranking official in this war (Gen. Patreaus) appears to be of the belief that we have approached this war wrong to begin with, he won't come straight out and say it, which amazes me, but he hated Rummy, and aslo thinks that we accomplish nothing by dropping bombs and not getting lights turned back on there.

In the end we will leave another war torn city, with all left behind angered at the giant....Again

And to be honest, if Obama gets what he wants (troop removal) and nothing is done about the infrastructure, then the end result is still the same.

Personally, I think that is where a lot of the anger is coming from, even from the "freindly" folks there, they see us knocking down buildings, and not re-building which is why we are supposed to have all of these fortune 500 companies there...To re-build, not monogram towels.

and certainly not to build showers with no GFCI protection.....Jesus people

Minor Axis · 08-13-2008, 10:09 AM

I'm not sure if it is still as prevalent as before, but the U.S. has spent billions and billions on Iraq infrastructure, but the people who don't want us there keep messing it up. This is while our own infrastructure in the U.S. suffers... This war has cost so incredibly much all ready, how much of it going to "contractors"(?), how much of it unaccounted for (?), I don't know if the U.S. can still afford to fix Iraq without watching us crumble in the process.

BadBoy@TheWheel · 08-13-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minor Axis

I'm not sure if it is still as prevalent as before, but the U.S. has spent billions and billions on Iraq infrastructure, but the people who don't want us there keep messing it up. This is while our own infrastructure in the U.S. suffers...

One question:

Does Iraq look any different

They have not done a single thing except pocket that money

Minor Axis · 08-13-2008, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBoy@TheWheel

One question:
Does Iraq look any different

They have not done a single thing except pocket that money

Very good question.

Strauss · 08-13-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minor Axis

There was the “Anbar awakening” in which Sunni tribal leaders turned against al-Qaida in Iraq, there was the relatively new tactic of the U.S. Army directly negotiating with tribal leaders, the success of Iraq’s government in confronting Sunni and Shiite militias, and the cease fire between the Iraqi government and Shiite militia leader Muqtada al-Sadr.

Brilliant! Its the surge that allowed these things to happen. It provided the space the Iraqis need to accomplish what you've pointed out.

Strauss · 08-13-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBoy@TheWheel

One question:

Does Iraq look any different

They have not done a single thing except pocket that money

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minor Axis

Very good question.

Well speaking to the men and women who have been there (and I work with several) you are, putting it mildly, incorrect.

Strauss · 08-13-2008, 06:40 PM

BTW, who the hell gave Mulder permission to steal my stuff?

BadBoy@TheWheel · 08-13-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strauss

Well speaking to the men and women who have been there (and I work with several) you are, putting it mildly, incorrect.

It's not an insult to troops, I have nothing but respect for them...

So tell me...Chicken in every pot....Gold plated faucets, silk sheets on the beds

What exactly have we re-built.....other than the deepening of the middle east hatred for us?

Strauss · 08-13-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBoy@TheWheel

It's not an insult to troops, I have nothing but respect for them...

So tell me...Chicken in every pot....Gold plated faucets, silk sheets on the beds

What exactly have we re-built.....other than the deepening of the middle east hatred for us?

Iraq has a capital market better than China. Don't invest in the stocks on the China stock exchange.

BadBoy@TheWheel · 08-13-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strauss

Iraq has a capital market better than China. Don't invest in the stocks on the China stock exchange.

Umm I don't

Zorak · 08-13-2008, 06:49 PM

Ok granted if what Strauss says is true, does no one else find that a little worrying?

That of all the billions spent the only thing that seems to have benefitted from it is the market. Or to put it another way, America has more ways make money and Mr and Mrs Iraqi still live in a bombed out shell of a shack...

Strauss · 08-13-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorak

Ok granted if what Strauss says is true, does no one else find that a little worrying?

That of all the billions spent the only thing that seems to have benefitted from it is the market. Or to put it another way, America has more ways make money and Mr and Mrs Iraqi still live in a bombed out shell of a shack...

Guys, I was giving one example of which I'm very familiar. There have been many improvements in Iraq, even some of the shit we blew up. (That was a joke,)

08-13-2008, 09:51 AM	#2
Minor Axis Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Between Canada and Mexico Posts: 1,659 Tokenz: 28,167	Re: Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!! Although you imagine the ability to map out an alternate history, we have no idea what state Iraq would be in today without the surge because the surge was not the only thing that happened. There was the “Anbar awakening” in which Sunni tribal leaders turned against al-Qaida in Iraq, there was the relatively new tactic of the U.S. Army directly negotiating with tribal leaders, the success of Iraq’s government in confronting Sunni and Shiite militias, and the cease fire between the Iraqi government and Shiite militia leader Muqtada al-Sadr. If you are trying to support McCain's foreign policy experience maybe you can address why he supported this offensive disaster of a War from the start? I am very tired of tough talk from leaders prone to starting wars. Then there was McCain walking through Bagdad in 2007 accompanied by 100 soldiers and 5 attack helos, dressed in body armor talking about how Bagdad had really changed for the better because he could walk freely through a neighborhood. Even I had to chuckle at that. LA Times, strategy of a savvy diplomat? McCain's Bad G8 Summit Call __________________ "I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!" Last edited by Minor Axis; 08-13-2008 at 10:06 AM.

08-13-2008, 09:54 AM	#3
Zorak Age of Empires III addict Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Surrey, England, UK Posts: 2,949 Tokenz: 32,133	Re: Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!! The deaths are already in vein. They're dead and gone and killing more Iraqi's won't suddenly make it all worthwhile. __________________ "...I will die alone, upside down, in a pub toilet." Hey hey, My my, Rock and Roll can never die.

08-13-2008, 10:01 AM	#4
BadBoy@TheWheel Hilbilly Deluxe Senior Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: On A Milk Carton Posts: 15,114 Tokenz: 28,821	Re: Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!! The senior ranking official in this war (Gen. Patreaus) appears to be of the belief that we have approached this war wrong to begin with, he won't come straight out and say it, which amazes me, but he hated Rummy, and aslo thinks that we accomplish nothing by dropping bombs and not getting lights turned back on there. In the end we will leave another war torn city, with all left behind angered at the giant....Again And to be honest, if Obama gets what he wants (troop removal) and nothing is done about the infrastructure, then the end result is still the same. Personally, I think that is where a lot of the anger is coming from, even from the "freindly" folks there, they see us knocking down buildings, and not re-building which is why we are supposed to have all of these fortune 500 companies there...To re-build, not monogram towels. and certainly not to build showers with no GFCI protection.....Jesus people __________________ Charter Member of The Conservatives In Exile 11/5/2008

08-13-2008, 10:09 AM	#5
Minor Axis Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Between Canada and Mexico Posts: 1,659 Tokenz: 28,167	Re: Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!! I'm not sure if it is still as prevalent as before, but the U.S. has spent billions and billions on Iraq infrastructure, but the people who don't want us there keep messing it up. This is while our own infrastructure in the U.S. suffers... This war has cost so incredibly much all ready, how much of it going to "contractors"(?), how much of it unaccounted for (?), I don't know if the U.S. can still afford to fix Iraq without watching us crumble in the process. __________________ "I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!" Last edited by Minor Axis; 08-13-2008 at 10:12 AM.

08-13-2008, 06:40 PM	#10
Strauss Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 446 Tokenz: 6,134	Re: Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!! BTW, who the hell gave Mulder permission to steal my stuff? __________________ Color is the deed and sufferings of light.......Goethe Where there is one religion, there is despotism; where there are two, civil war. Let there be thirty religions and they will live together in peace........Voltaire

08-13-2008, 06:49 PM	#14
Zorak Age of Empires III addict Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Surrey, England, UK Posts: 2,949 Tokenz: 32,133	Re: Obama said to withdraw from Iraq--McCain said to Surge!!! Ok granted if what Strauss says is true, does no one else find that a little worrying? That of all the billions spent the only thing that seems to have benefitted from it is the market. Or to put it another way, America has more ways make money and Mr and Mrs Iraqi still live in a bombed out shell of a shack... __________________ "...I will die alone, upside down, in a pub toilet." Hey hey, My my, Rock and Roll can never die.

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