ssl

Very descriptive title, eh?

Anyways, let me set you up with the back story:

My mom has a lot of paperwork with my uncle's estate and all. Well, during mundane work, such as sorting the papers and whatnot, she turns on the radio (I now have a separate radio in my room, so I do not have to listen to her station(s) if I choose not to). Her station(s) are Christian in nature.

Afterwards, we were eating lunch, and I was listening to some promotional thing or other, and for some reason, my mind questioned the first few words of the passage that was being spoken, John 3:16.

I think I had the thought, because the radio personality stressed the "so" portion of the verse.

My thought:

If God loved the world so much, why did he not give himself?

GraceAbounds

He did.

__________________

ssl

My mother brought up the Holy Trinity as well, but then again, how did God turn his back on himself?



Trust me, we covered a few points that I cannot recall at the moment, but I am sure if we discuss this further, we will get around to them. I did not wish to engage in a debate with her, just to pose the question for pondering.

valley

Maybe you should try it before you decide that its not a sacrifice. This is what you will go through: You'll be taken at night, brought before a kangaroo court in the middle of the night where they will find you guilty with no evidence whatsoever. You will be spit on, stripped naked, beaten until your face is unrecognizable, whipped until the flesh falls from your back and then you'll get a crown with 2 inch thorns jammed down onto your head. After that, you get to carry a few hundred pounds on your raw back. And this is all before you receive the actual penalty for the "crime" that you are actually innocent of.....

WARNING: DO NOT CONTINUE TO READ IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO HANDLE GRAPHIC DETAILS

You can gather from the secular accounts of crucifixion in Jesus' time to figure out the details about how the victims died: He would have been nailed to the cross as it lay flat on the ground. The nails were long iron spikes. The nails were actually driven through the wrist, not the palms, because the tendons and the bone structure of the hand cannot support the weight of the body. All that would happen is that the flesh between the bones would rip and the person would fall off. Feel the bones in your own hands....you will see the truth in this. But the wrist is strong enough to support the weight, even though the carpal bones would be shattered, causing extreme pain radiating up the entire arm, not to mention the nerves that would have been affected. Then a single nail was driven through both feet, causing the same kind of pain radiating up through both legs. After that, the soldiers would raise the cross and place it into a deep posthole. it would drop with a jarring blow causing the full weight of the person to fall on their already intensely painful wounds. You see, the Romans perfected the art of crucifixion in order to maximize the pain. They knew how to draw out the most suffering without the person being able to lose consciousness. There was no way of escaping the pain. One of the emperors of the time (Tiberius) preferred crucifixion because it prolonged the agony without the chance of relief by unconsciousness or death. He believed death was an escape so a quick death was not really a punishment unless the person felt as much pain as humanly possible before they died. Death came from slow suffocation. The body would hang in such a way that the diaphragm was severely constricted. In order to exhale, the person would have to push himself up with the feet so the diaphragm would have room to move. Ultimately, fatigue, intense pain or muscle atrophy would make it impossible for the victim to do this, and he would finally die from the lack of oxygen.

Here is the comments of a medical doctor (Truman Davis) who studied the physical effects of Jesus' crucifixion: you can read more of the account from here

This is why the Romans sometimes broke the legs below the knees on those who were crucified (something that they didnt do for Jesus, which happens to be a fulifllment of prophecy) breaking the legs hurried the process along and brought a quicker death (see John 19:31).


It may not seem like much of a sacrifice to you.....but i'd like to see you or anyone else willingly go through it to pay for someone else's crimes.

__________________

valley

It wasnt in vain. If Christ hadnt come to pay for our sins then none of us could go to heaven. I know you dont believe that but its true!

__________________

RecklessTim

Why is it so complicated?

Why would God who knows everything create a world of sin where he would then need to create his son so he can be tortured and die for us? He knew that when he gave us free will that we would choose the path of sin, so then why do it? Why create a world of pain and suffering, famine and disease, war and hatred when you knew about this before you even started? Did he not have the forethought to create perfection? Or is this what he wanted all along? Maybe he enjoys watching the pain and suffering over the centuries...

Or maybe it's time people realize that there is no God...

Just my .02........

__________________
Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.

valley

WHOA..........back up a minute!

God's foreknowledge is not in itself the cause of what happens in our lives. For instance, He knows right now what your thoughts will be when you read my words here...He knows the response you are going to give me, if any...but He is not going to interfere with your complete freedom to act as you wish to act towards me. You could reply and call me stupid...and I could turn around and blame God saying "God isnt real because if He were then people like Tim wouldnt exist in the world!" That is absurd to me. God is not a personal servant who runs around making everything perfect for us so we dont have to deal with anything that ever goes wrong in the world. According to your thinking, God is responsible for:

Murder
Rape
Child Molestation
Theft
Drug abuse
Violence
Greed
Gluttony
Selfishness
Blackmail
Tax Evasion
Insider Trading
etc....any and all evil that interferes with mans pursuit of happiness, right?

God did not make us as robots who can only obey, without any ability to think for ourselves. This world is the way that it is because mankind has screwed it up, not God....so lets not put the blame where it belongs!

Does He enjoy watching us kill and hate each other? What do you think? Come on...God is loving and He is faithful and He brings peace and joy to people in some of the worst conditions that would destroy them otherwise. There is testimony after testimony of people who have been able to survive terrible ordeals because of their faith in God. There is nothing sweeter than the feeling you get when you are troubled by something you cant control and you go to God in prayer and you feel an immediate relief from all of the stress. I am very grateful that God is there to comfort me when I need it. People let me down all of the time when I need them....God is always there. Always!

But I need to realize that there is no God? Its the other way around, my friend....you are the one who needs to realize that there is a God. And once you do that then I promise you that it wont be as complicated as you've made it out to be.

__________________

valley

Really? Well thats a good start...more than lots of people are willing to admit!

Can you tell me how you came to believe this way?

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Breath

If you love someone, it is far easier to give your own life for them rather than to throw them under the bus. To sacrifice the one you love is by far the greater sacrifice.

ssl

Interesting way to put it. Would not that say you love yourself more, however?

Well, it is quite a sacrifice, if you know they would not come back. However, if you are going to see them, it is just a temporary leave of absence.

__________________
The surface is calm
The deep sea churns violently
The shore is different

Goodbye

Chieftan

Of course it doesnt make sense, its the buy bull. everything valey is going on about comes from ink on paper. The same book that says a man lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days, and a man put a pair of all the animals on a boat. Does that sound like it make sense too.

Andre

According to my thinking as well - if also according to his thinking.

God is supposedly sufficient unto himself and is omniscient. Therefore there is no demonstrable NEED for creation to exist at all, and God was fully aware of all of the heinous and despicable acts that would occur on Earth before he even created it. Yet he went ahead with it anyway. We did not ask to be created or need to exist - the ULTIMATE responsibility is certainly not ours. (Please don't relate this to human's having children - we are not immortal or sufficient unto ourselves - doesn't match).

And not only that! But supposedly billions of souls that did not need to be created at all will spend all of eternity in painful torment - something he also knew and something that was unnecessary.

Of course that's rubbish - it simply doesn't make sense - so either God doesn't exist or our opinion on his nature is flawed in my opinion.

Minor Axis

You know this based on... your faith?

I do put the blame on mankind. But Tim is asking with complete control why set the world up like this? I view our existence as free form development and possibly unmonitored. If life on Earth is crap, with what control we have over nature, it's people who make our existence good or bad.

Faith in God does not prove there is a God, it proves you overcome when imagining the right incentives, a caring hand, and/or a reward in heaven.

Maybe it was God or maybe your mind just helped itself.

What if God is your imagination? Then what?

I may be realizing something here and that is you can't talk people into believing in something because you believe in it. Just like you can't talk alcoholics out of drinking. Maybe a poor analogy, but they have to want to change. We all make our choices and form beliefs based on our personal experiences. Typically when someone makes a logical statement such as "why did God set up the world this way", you get all these faith-based answers because they are the only answers that faithful can give. There are no logical factual answer to be found in this discussion.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

RecklessTim

Really? A greater sacrifice?

How is it a greater sacrifice to create a being out of thin air, call him your son (which is not his son by any definition, it's not like he raised him from a child) and let him die for the "sins" of man? How does this make any sense to you people? Have you actually thought about it? God's son? How does he qualify to be his son?

__________________
Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.

Chieftan

[quote=Andre;687140]According to my thinking as well - if also according to his thinking.

God is supposedly sufficient unto himself and is omniscient. Therefore there is no demonstrable NEED for creation to exist at all, and God was fully aware of all of the heinous and despicable acts that would occur on Earth before he even created it.

true, if god is omniscient (all knowing), he should haveknown any outcome of evil regarding his apparent son that he so lovingly gave....... who he created......... then sacrificed.......to live in heaven. Imnot TRYING to bash faith in god but come on. and to add to this point, not just being omniscient, but isnt god flawless? Well id hate to be the bearer of bad news, but life he created, .......IS PRETTY FUCKED UP.