BadBoy@TheWheel

I have read the Bible multiple times in my adult life.

Here's my issue with it, and subsequently the issue with the O/P:

I think there's gaps in the Bible, and if you have an ounce of intellect, you'll agree.

I guess my question is, what is being hidden? Why can't the whole story be told?

What are they trying to hide? (by they I mean the Catholics, cause they have the scrolls, I just know it and they got a story to tell, but I think in orde to do so it would undo Catholocism and we can't have that can we?)

Essentially, faith is just that. Faith

Nobody here has ANY PHYSICAL PROOF WHATSOEVER that the crucifiction ever happened, if you think you do, I'm all ears.

Or in this case eyes.

__________________

Fox Mulder

Now there is another shocker!!!!

Minor Axis

That is the problem when debating who/what God is, the religious folks are going to give you these matter of fact statements "God exists" mixed in with "beyond our comprehension". Logical questions can never be answered with faith based answers, but the devote try to do it consistently. It's as if we are speaking two different languages.

Actually sacrificing a loved one instead of yourself, is usually viewed as selfish and cowardly, at least in human terms. I admit with God and heaven, seems to change that dynamic. But when you know Jesus went to heaven to live the good life, it does not seem like much of a sacrifice on God's part does it?

There may not be the traditional Christian God as we know it, but consider the possibility of something, a force, a spiritual existence, an ever-after. It's just as possible as oblivion! The good thing about being Atheist or Agnostic, you have nothing to loose if your wrong. But the Christians have this "burning in hell" monkey on their back. If they're wrong, then it's marsh mellow time!

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Minor Axis

I'll beg for mercy tell him it's his fault for being so elusive. His "hiding in the clouds" method of Godliness, did not connect, and who made me anyway?- he did of course. As a father, I expect him to make an appearance more than every couple of thousand years. Being a neglected son, so it's my fault?? Then I'll find our how loving of a God he really is.

Seriously why does it have to be God or nothing? In the spectrum of belief, there is the Christian God out on one limb and the Atheists out on the other. There could be something in between. The odds are against you. I bet you a dollar we are going to be surprised when we pass over and if it's the Christian God just as you said, I'll give you $10. If you agree, I'll look for you in the next existence to collect.

Please explain your logic in logical terms. Just don't tell me how you know or you feel, ok?

It's not me, it's the devote who must express a logical factual answer about God to prove me wrong.

Here's a question for our religious scholars- Of all the religions in the world, how many of them threaten humans with eternal damnation for not believing? Is it common or just a Christian thing? And if believing is important, then why not make it easy to believe? Why force people to make glorified guesses based on flawed ancient religious documents (vetted by special interest groups), their hopes for salvation, and their emotions? If we were created smart by our maker, why not give us some credit with facts and not conjecture? (Ok, so that turned into several questions and I have asked them before but have not received a satisfactory answer.)

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

valley

Isaiah 45:18


For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

Your original statement was that "if God is self-sufficient then creation was unnecessary". The verse I just gave shows that He did not create it in vain..He had a purpose, a reason for it.

God does not do unnecessary things because He is God. Man does unnecessary things because he doesnt always understand the situation or he doesnt have all of the information to be able to make the right decision at all times when he acts. The very idea that God makes decisions that are unnecessary is absurd to me, especially when you try to say that all of creation was unnecessary...I mean maybe you could make a better case for the necessity of mosquitoes or something like that but creation? Nope. I'm not buying it. But i'm sure you know that already.

Minor Axis

This quote implies that God created the Earth for a purpose. It does not prove in a scriptural sense, that God does not do unnecessary things.

BTW, I don't regard scriptures as proof because one day in my youth I was walking down a mountain road and out of a cave came this person, plainly dressed, with a glow around him (it might have been the weed he was smoking? just guessing). What struck me odd was the plainly dressed but beautiful woman on each arm escorting him.

"Behold" he said handing me this paper:

And the Lord sayeth,
Be marry and par-tay it up,
For you only live once as your current self,
And the good die young.

"Where did you get this?" I asked.
"My son, the Lord came to me in a dream and by my hand had me scribe this important message from the here-after."
Being not the gullible type, I was suspect of the origins of this document. A message from the Lord or some guy who was into partying? Or was this the Devil? But wait it was easy, the Lord never sends par-tay messages, but then...
"Ah yes" said the man, reading my mind, "The church has always kept secret the "par-tay" messages from the Lord."
The threesome turned back to the cave as I called out, "but what is your name?"
"They call me Bruce". And as I looked up, one of the women glanced over her shoulder and gave a "follow-me" gesture as I watched her hips sway back and forth. Oh the dilemmas we face as mere mortals!

The Dilemma:
1. Was this scripture real?
2. Was it temptation from the Devil?
3. Or was it the hallucination of a party animal?

A better person than I will have to decipher the meaning...

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

valley

yeah well....good luck with that. According to the Bible, man is without excuse.

First, tell me why you want to know.


Proving you wrong is not the reason that I am in this discussion.

well I do not consider myself a "religious scholar" so I will leave this question for them to answer.

valley

Andre's original statement was this:

"If God is self-sufficient then creation was unnecessary"

Does the verse I gave refute his claim or is this a case of the original premise being altered in favor of a new tactic?

Minor Axis

I saw you answer in regards to this question:

Originally Posted by val
God obviously thought creation was necessary otherwise, we would not be here. God does not do unnecessary things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things?

Your answer followed so I thought this was your answer to the question of "God never does unnecessary things."

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Minor Axis

Maybe the Bible got it wrong? You know the Bible as we know it was compiled by a group of crusty old men and edited with an agenda don't you?

It's just my desire to hear a logical reason, not faith based reason, why the Christian God exists as you think it does. I don't consider quoting scripture as logic.


Wait-just-a-minute, when I said there were no logical factual statements made in this tread regarding God, you told me to "prove it." The religious posters in this thread will actually prove me wrong by posting something that is logical and factual.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

valley

Well I have spent a long time examining my faith. I've asked many questions and have looked for answers. It makes sense to me in a logical way. I suppose I could write a 10,000 word essay on why my faith is logical...but there are others who have already written out a logical defense for Christianity so I will refer you to them if you are interested:

The Case for Christianity
Stand to Reason: Christianity as the Best Explanation
The Historicity of the New Testament

Enjoy. Lots of good stuff for any of you "logic junkies" to consider while reading.

valley

Gotcha.

My answer was meant to prevent Andre from cherry-picking my statements. I wanted to redirect him back to his original premise.

If you'll notice, right below the verse I posted, I made a statement regarding why I believe that God does not do unnecessary things.

Minor Axis

Unfortunately I'd have to buy this book, The Case for Christianity. I am willing to read something logical about religion if it is possible to be truly logical about it. As you know I have my doubts.

Christianity as the Best Explanation makes so many assumptions about what is logical and what is "accepted" it did not really sway me. I assure you I did not start reading it hoping it would disappoint me. For example the quote sentence below, all assumptions are based on human rationality and logic. The author disqualifies Eastern religions because they deny rationality and logic. When something is clearly beyond our comprehension, why then must if fall within our perception of logic and rationality? You know as religious people have a tendency of saying it is "beyond our comprehension". It must sound like I'm now making a case against logic, but I'm just keeping options open. Bottom line, I currently see no way to discuss this issue logically, only faithfully. Nothing else in this article really sounds like a fact to me. I'd be happy to be mistaken.

Most of the stuff that people in these forums are picking on are quotes from the Bible and origination of holy laws as derived from religious documents. The Bible is a very poor document to try to prove the existence of the Christian God imo.

Christianity as the Best Explanation
Logical consistency seems to be more "cut and dry" than the other two criteria. Logic is a natural function of human minds and is universally practiced. In fact, the universality of logic itself needs to be explained in a religious worldview. Many religious beliefs can be dismissed at the outset because they fail this first criterion, for example eastern religions that deny rationality and logic. They not only cannot account for logic, they fail the test of rationality since they hold contradictory beliefs.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Andre

Minor Axis answered this well (from my perspective):

And I can think of many things I do "for a purpose" that are "unnecessary". Are you now claiming valley, the creation was NECESSARY? By necessary I mean "had to be done".


Well I have spent a long time examining my faith. I've asked many questions and have looked for answers. It makes NO sense to me in a logical way. I suppose I could write a 10,000 word essay on why your faith is illogical...but there are others who have already written out a logical refutation of Christianity.


I do not believe I have swayed from my original premise, which was:

I have accepted for the sake of argument that there may be some kind of "hidden blessing" in despicable acts of violence against innocent people - because I am only human, and cannot appreciate the true good or evil of an earthly act in the way God would be able to.

So I have dropped that line of thinking - admitted our earthly experiences and pain may be completely inconsquential in relation to eternity - but that leaves the rather glaring issue of people suffering an eternity of torment in hell, when God did not need them to exist in the first place as far as I can tell.


I must say valley, that I can't see how you would claim to have any idea about whether I have made my mind up on this issue. Indeed you asked me elsewhere to clarify for you whether I was a strict atheist. I responded briefly but honestly in an attempt to assure you I am seeking the truth, and am not against the idea of God existing. Yet it seems from where I sit that if I don't agree with you feel that I have already made up my mind. I can assure you that is not the case - you are merely failing to convince me of anything.

And conversely, when trying to discuss matters such as there with Christians I find it is the reverse which is true. Indeed "making up your mind without being able to back up you beliefs with evidence" is surely a component of faith?

valley

well gentlemen, I guess I will withdraw from this argument. I dont believe that I am going to convince anyone here of anything. If you cannot accept the basic concept that God is perfect then its no wonder that you continue to wrestle with these questions of yours. For me, there is a settled assurance of Who God is so I dont have the same struggle. I wish you well and hope you find your answers some day.

So go in peace. I'm sure i'll see yous again in another thread here in the religious section! Until then...........