valley

If thats true then I will die and turn into nothingness. How about you....what will you do when you find out God is real and you have to face Him on judgment day?

LOL...faith is a given...everyone has faith in something! Faith in God does not automatically exclude logic and reason. Actually, it is built on logic.

Prove it.

valley

I agree...your opinion of His nature is flawed.

valley

Have you no concept of the Christian view of God at all? Jesus Christ is not a created being....

Andre

That's not what I said - I said OUR opinion of his nature.

I presented you with a tough question and I can only assume you have no repsonse to it.

I find your use of excessively emotive emoticons in intellectual discussions insulting and sarcastic. Please refrain from using them when responding to me.

valley

Yes, I know this. And my point was to basically say "speak for yourself" because I do not agree with you!

You presented a question? Where may I ask did you do that?

From where I am sitting, you presented me with a straw man argument, which you then attempted to tear down by applying an "either/or" solution to.

I am sorry Andre. Please forgive me for that. I meant to point out that I found your opinion to be flawed. I should have left the wink out, though. I will try to remember not to do it again (with you).

GraceAbounds

I agree with every word Valley has posted.

__________________

Andre

OK valley - let me make it nice and simple - you claimed to AGREE with me and then put words in my mouth. That is not agreeing. If you don't agree, as you said here:

Then say I DON'T agree with you - not I AGREE with you. Simple.

So sorry - here is everything I said framed simply WITH A QUESTION MARK (to make it an OFFICIAL question).

If God is self-sufficient creation is unecessary.
If God is ominpotent (all-knowing) he was fully aware of every implication of creating this system.

If creation is unecessary and God had perfect knowledge of the millions of negatives outcomes that would occur the question is:

How is creation anything more than a worthless crime?

REMEMBER - you cannot reference OUR importance in answering, becuase that would make God less than self-sufficent. You cannot claim that God can learn anything from our existence because he is omnisicent.

I disagree - you had no way of knowing it would bother me - so please (notice that word) just refrain. If you don't I can deal - it just annoys me and is irrelevant when considering the strength of your words. I don't think you are in a superior position or ever have the right to feel shocked - defend your idea of God if you can.


EDIT: Do not dismiss the seriousness of this question - it has remained unanswered for 15 years of my life (including by pastors) and is the reason I left the church.

valley

Why are you explaining this to me? I know what I did and so do you...I apologized so lets move on.
How do you know this?

That is incorrect. Omnipotent means "all-powerful". Omniscient means "all-knowing".

I agree that He was fully aware of the implications of the creation that He made. I also have to assume that since He is omniscient, and we are not, that His reason, logic and will transcends our puny human reason, logic and will. Would you agree with that statement?

Your logic does not follow. God obviously thought creation was necessary otherwise, we would not be here. God does not do unnecessary things.

I would never think that God can learn from mankind! Its a huge contradiction to say that God is omniscient and then say that He learns from us. I'm not sure why you would even anticipate that I might say such a thing.

I will argue that we are important to God though. God is self-sufficient and He does not need us in any way. But being self-sufficient does mean that He does not want us either. God is a loving God and He created us for His own pleasure. He doesnt need us but He wants us with Him because He loves us. It gives Him pleasure to show His love....we exist because He is generous and loving.

Firstly, I will admit that I believe my position is correct and yours in wrong but just to be clear, I do not believe myself to be personally superior in any way to you.

Secondly, who are you to tell me that I dont have the right to feel shocked regarding anything that I see people say? You are not the thought police and if I feel shocked, appalled or outraged over an idea that you toss out then I will challenge it in a manner that I deem appropriate.

Thirdly, I would have to feel that my idea of God was being attacked before I felt like I had to defend it. I dont feel like I have to defend what I believe to you or anyone else here. But I do have a desire to correct what I believe is faulty thinking and that is why I am here.

I believe your mind is made up and you have no real desire to have an answer.

Try this question on for size if you would:

Do you accept the possibility that God not only exists, but that He also has the answer to your question?

GraceAbounds

When something happens to you, how do you determine whether it is good or evil? Most will say that when it makes them feel good or gives them a sense of security that they would call it good. And if something causes them pain or costs them something they want then it is evil. This answer as to what is good and what is evil is obviously subjective when it comes to how man thinks. How confident can man be in their ability to discern what is indeed good or evil with what they think is good or evil changing over time and circumstance? And beyond that and even worse, there are billions of us each determining what is good and what is evil. So when our good and evil clash with our neighbor's good and evil, fights and arguments ensue and even wars break out.

Most people are not totally sure that they have any logical ground for deciding what is actually good or evil, except how something or someone affects them. It is all honestly rather self-serving and self-centered. Since man has determined good and evil even though it is subjective they have still chosen to become the judge of such matters. We play God in our independence which is what we got when Adam and Eve ate of the tree as the spiritual universe was ripped apart from the physical. It's sad because we were created for relationship, not independence. Evil is the absence of God. There is not an absence of God on this earth. There is evil in what we do as there is an absence of God in us whenever we draw upon ourselves instead of the Lord.

Many people wish for things they believe are good and when they get them realize they were actually evil/curses. And other people swear they are having evil/curses happen to them only to later look back at that time in their life and declare that it was actually a blessing that happened to them.

So the million of things you view as negatives, which may or may not be negatives as man's definition of good and evil is subjective, obviously is worth what is to come according to God.

__________________

nTejas

It's all good.......and then some.

Minor Axis

I agree! But you lost me with Adam and Eve.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Andre

I used the wrong word accidentally - I know the meanings of the "omni-words" but thanks for answering my question despite the error.

IF God exists AND is omniscient, of course his reasoning would transcend ours. However basic rules of logic that we can see would still hold true from his perspective as well - e.g:

if A is B
and B is C
then A is C

That holds true no matter how intelligent you become.

I am glad you agree that God is unlikely to be engaged in unnecessary activities that could cause harm. Do you have any scriptural evidence for the fact the God never does unnecessary things? If not - feel free to drop that point anyway. Strange that my perception of this problem is a "problem beyond my understanding" and yet you are possessed of an intellect that can state "God obviously thought creation was necessary."

You are wrong. I believe that this is a genuine contradiction that implies that God either does not exist or possesses ability levels below those usually ascribed to him, or perhaps even that he may not be benevolent. I want this question answered - but I doubt it will be in any other way than "I have to just have faith" or "God's purposes are beyond my comprehension" - and neither of those answers satisfies in the slightest.

Yes I accept the possibility that God exists and if He did would undoubtedly be able to answer this question - maybe in a few seconds.

Andre

OK - I will accept that - and I appreciate your answer - but I can't comprehend how an eternity of torment in hell could ever be seen as a blessing or beneficial to you.

Zorak

I know, I've been to Birmingham, it fucking sucked.

__________________
"...I will die alone, upside down, in a pub toilet."


Hey hey, My my, Rock and Roll can never die.

Everything is just a Mistero Buffo

RecklessTim

That's the part that actually turned me from a life long believer to an unbeliever.

It's when I was able to sort of, kind of grasp what an eternity in hell actually means. Because just when you think you fully understand/comprehend what forever means, you aren't even close. And to damn anyone to an eternity of anything just doesn't make sense. Because if you believe the bible is true and there is a god that damns you to an eternity of unimaginable pain and suffering for not believing in him, then that's just messed up. Especially since the majority of mankind would be there. What kind of messed up god would be so cruel? How is that just? A god of love? My ass.

There is no god

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Mr President;
It has been reported that you are here to "lecture" us on democracy and human rights. But with a record like yours, you will not be very convincing.