Minor Axis

You are either mistaking oppression with freedom, or your kidding yourself that the Muslim form of "big brother" knows what's best for you.

There is an example where you are prevented from doing something, such as not wearing a veil in public, not working as a doctor, not driving a vehicle. Then there is the example were it is your choice to do something degrading like starring in a porno film.

The first example there is no choice. That is oppression. The second example is freedom to make bad choices. There is a distinct difference. When you say we are protecting you (woman) by not allowing you to do some very basic things that men can do without question that is oppression. It's the same kind of thinking that blames a women if she is raped. It really is a man's world in the Middle East.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Sylviane88

so according to you, there is no opression in islam toward women, because "al-hijab" is their choice. ask them.

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Minor Axis

Sure there are some (most?) who grew up with the custom and are ok with it, but there are others who would prefer to wear western style clothing, but can't and you know it. During the first Desert Storm there were the "morals" police chasing female U.S. military personnel driving military vehicles in Saudi because OMG, there is a woman driving and not dressed properly!!

This argument is about the freedom and the ability to choose. Regardless of what they prefer to do, your telling me that women can choose to wear what they want? Just admit, that by Western standards, women are second class citizens in fundamentalist Muslim society. Your credibility suffers when you deny it. I can't argue it is religion based or cultural, but it is what it is.

BTW, if your culture requires "morals" police on the street, I'd say there's a problem there with control.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Zuma101

Rofl, okay this is funny as HELL coming from the eyes of an actual muslim.

I could go into this whole argument, prove you wrong, yet still no one would admit it, so this time, i'm just going to watch for a while, smile, and chuckle

But, I will be coming into this topic sooner or later.

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You have to give that creepy guy at work some candy, because one day when he just snaps, and he's in the office with a sawed off shotgun, he'll be killing every fuckin' one of your friends, and when he finally gets to your desk, he'll just whisper "Thanks for the candy"

Zuma101

I couldn't resist but I have to point out 1 point.

Most of you speak as if you know what happened, what was said, what it means when all you read from is the translated english version of the qur'an , which are VERY VERY misguided. So far i've read countless posts on this topic and many others that made me want to go "Omg, either this fucktard just copy/pasted something from a webpage, or just has no fucking idea what he's talking about." Half of you DO NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT ISLAM IS AS A RELIGION!!!!!

I just hope, as in REALLY hope someone replies to this post, and flame at me, curse me, and do whatever the hell he wants to me, just so I can make him look like a complete idiot infront of this whole fucking forum.

Oh and ya know what? I don't believe i'm much of a good muslim. Yes, I sin, like everyone. I do occasionally blow off my morals and so every once and a while, but when you see ignorance flying infront of you, and people throwing in their 2 cents just for the heck of it.. It makes you furious to a point that you feel to say " Well atleast I dont go blabbing my mouth about something I have not studied, intercepted thourghally (Or barely even acknowleged as a religion) and say what it means, or believes, or says!!!!

Aghhhhhhhhh!!!

__________________
You have to give that creepy guy at work some candy, because one day when he just snaps, and he's in the office with a sawed off shotgun, he'll be killing every fuckin' one of your friends, and when he finally gets to your desk, he'll just whisper "Thanks for the candy"

Minor Axis

I think the original question was does the Quran include text regarding condoning killing of infidels, obviously asked by someone who is not a Muslim expert. And the answer is? And a better question "is the killing of infidels condoned by the greater Muslim religions today? The Bible really gets into stoning, but I would say most Christians today would disapprove.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Zuma101

Alright, since I am a Muslim, I will clear things up for those who don't know, and those who seem to exaggerate.
First what you all call "killing of infidels" (Such as terrorist suicide bombings) is NOT encouraged in the Qur'an. It is NOT encouraged in the Islamic religion.

There is a difference between committing a suicide bombing, and a "feda2y".
A suicide bomber is most likely from terrorists that DO NOT follow the Islam religion as it is teached. Such people or called Zionists, who have interpreted the Qur'an wrongly and probably on purpose. Beside, if you really want to get in 9/11 that's a whole other story along with Al Qaeda.

A feda2y is indeed of the Muslim religion. He is a soldier that does not commit suicide!! This has been very wrongly interpreted MANY MANY times. He is a soldier that fights to the death until victorious. So NO, he's not committing suicide, he is just fighting for his religion/country aggressively. Which is found in many countries, yet have only been named in a few...

Also it's funny how most believe don't embrace Islam. You see, Islam believes in all the past religions. It does believe Jesus was a messenger of god. It does believe Moses was a messenger of god. Which is why you see very strong similarities between both the bible and the Qur’an? We believe that god decided to send down his religions in separate times and parts. He decided to start with Judaism, than Christianity, than Islam. That is why we call Prophet Mohamed "Khatem Al Rusul" Which means "Last of the Messengers".

This point I stress very much. Why do people look at the Middle East and assume the worst and illiterate? You know we are HUMANS. We actually shop! We have KFC and Hardees and Pizza Hut! Sounds fun doesn't it? Hah! Dubai alone is one of the most progressing countries in the world to date. So no, we aren't just teaching our religion in stories and so. We encourage very much to teach all people to read so they can read the Qur'an for themselves. God wanted us to choose him, not for us to be forced to choose.

Al hijab. Interesting topic. Highly debated. I don't have MUCH insight. But where I come from (Egypt) The woman choose to wear or not to wear a hijab. It is not pressured as much as people say. Once she is a woman, she may choose whatever she wants to do. I will admit that it is pressured in Saudi Arabia and other countries, but only because they follow the religion very strongly. Let's not jump to conclusions here, shall we? Let's not pretend that Christianity does not oppress women a lot. In the US, in some states, women are forced to wear certain clothing, and to act a certain way, and are not allowed to work in the work force (Especially).

Oh and I saw a topic that showed almost 50 YouTube videos showing Muslims converting to Orthodox. This one REALLY made me laugh. Especially, as in ESPECIALLY, here in Egypt, a lot of the Christians that come to work here for a living convert to Islam. If I would give you a percentage, I would say near 25 - 30 percent. That's in Egypt ALONE! A lot if you ask me. Please don't give me crap about Islam being a fake because a couple hundred converted. That's what I call ignorance. Not researching your debaters, yet only present your argument, with nothing to defend it with.

That's all for now. If you have any questions ask. Don't feel shy to reply to my post. Bottom line is that Islam respects all religions, yet it is still being criticized for no big fucking reason.

__________________
You have to give that creepy guy at work some candy, because one day when he just snaps, and he's in the office with a sawed off shotgun, he'll be killing every fuckin' one of your friends, and when he finally gets to your desk, he'll just whisper "Thanks for the candy"

Minor Axis

Thanks for the thoughtful response but you did not really address either of the questions.

So there are no text in the Quran that condones the killing of infidels?

Even if there was I think the more important question would be how is that text interpreted by greater Muslim society today? I would no more condemn Muslims for such text as I would condemn Christians for the harsh language in the Old Testament. Crrent views are much more important. And is the Muslim religion tolerant or intolerant of other religious views?

Several years ago, I remember a blurb in the news about how in Saudi schools the teaching of an attitude that if you were an infidel, a non-believer, basically you were less than human. Did that mean you were worth killing for your non-belief? Honestly I don't remember if that was mentioned, but the news report had something to do with religious based violence coming out of the Middle East.

I think most Americans are scared by the Muslim religion when they see daily suicide bombings carried out by intolerant extremists. It's easy to jump to conclusions and start thinking that all Muslims are the same but I know they are not. We've got lots of Muslims in the U.S. and not one suicide bombing I'm aware of.

In the Middle East, I see the answer of less conflict partially in religious tolerance and liberalism, in addition to Israel ironing out its differences with its neighbors, but I'm not holding my breath as there as been conflict in the Middle East ever since Israel was established.

And as long as there are militants of any religion who want everyone to believe as they do and who wants governments to be controlled by religious organizations, there is going to be conflict.

Hmm, I am unaware of any dress code for the greater populace of women in the U.S., in any state as imposed by society or government. Some religions like Quakers or fundamentalist Jewish religions do impose dress standards. But membership is voluntary. Are the dress codes required? I don't know. I would guess the standards are maintained by individuals in an effort to fit in.

I can concede that in certain job environments, if you want to get ahead as a woman or as a man you had better conform to "the standard", whatever that currently is. But my impression is that it is a fairly lenient standard mostly based on the current "fashion sense", and nothing like a uniform. And the standard is voluntary. At no time will you be chased down the street by fashion police.

I consider the Muslim religion as a strictly practiced dogma to have just as much basis for authenticity as any organized religion when it comes to knowing the truth of our existence.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Temperamental

First. In Islam, oppression of women or anyone is forbidden. But I know what you mean. I.e. Saudi Arabia. Women have to cover themselves. But are they FORCED to cover themselves? No. They agree with the dress code. Rarely are women forced to cover themselves. Women don't have to cover their faces in Islam, so why do they in cover their faces in Saudi Arabia? It's because of their culture. Did you think about other Muslim countries? They're allowed to wear whatever they want and yet the women cover themselves because they believe in Islam and their culture is that way. The way you see Islam is through the media. And frankly the media is full of crap.

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-Invader Zim, ice cream vendor.

Peter Parka

Are the media reports about girls getting the death penalty for being raped crap too?

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Temperamental

I never heard about that. I dunno if it's true or not, but what I know it's not allowed to kill in Islam and whoever did has sinned in the eyes of Allah. You fail to distinguish between Islam and stupid people. I don't give a damn what those people do or believe in, what I care about is what's written in the Holy Quran and what's taught in Islam and killing is not allowed.

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-Invader Zim, ice cream vendor.

Peter Parka

Funny how many people ARE killed in the name of Islam then something is seriously wrong with that religion.

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Temperamental

Well they're stupid. Like I said, it's mostly due to culture. Before Islam, Arabs were barbaric. They used to kill their own child if it was a girl, kill her if she got raped or something. After Islam, most stopped. But still people keep on doing it believing that it's right because of their CULTURE. Nowhere is it said in the Quran that you're allowed to kill for such reasons.

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-Invader Zim, ice cream vendor.

Peter Parka

But they dont use culture as an excuse, they always bang on about doing it in the name of Allah, not their culture.

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Temperamental

Well that's what they believe is right. They're Muslims but what they due is based on culture, ignorance, or some other reason because it's not allowed in Islam to kill. It's not like they're getting a verse from the Holy Quran saying you have to do that.

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-Invader Zim, ice cream vendor.