Chieftan

[quote=Minor Axis;684671]I've always heard how wonderful Mormons are. And I've watched the first two season of Big Love. But I've always been suspect of the origins of the Mormon Church and how it's been described. It's just in my nature.

For your review: Let Us Reason.link. I tend to view this as a cult. Am I being harsh?
an ex-mormon site. Grant

ya, your being harsh. look up "Cult" in the dictionary. mormons do interact and work with other people and claim to worship god not some man.

Minor Axis

Any truth to that list of stuff I posted?

Where are those golden plates now? And when God chooses to make an appearance what possible good can it do showing himself to a lone individual in an apple orchard? God has terrible communication skills. Come to think of it, it's very convenient for self proclaimed messiah...

If the only goal is virtue, truth, and being a good person, maybe a comment is in order regarding the list of allegations I posted at the beginning of the thread.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Andre

Sorry MinorAxis! Somehow I missed that list. Well I could research everything, but it might be more beneficial to just get it from me the way that I see things personally. I did have a few minor dealings with the church in my later teens too.

From memory - and it's been a while - the golden plates were conveniently taken back up to heaven after Joseph Smith has purportedly translated them. Some men signed a statement saying they had witnessed the plates personally.

Long list - I cant really comment on the "good" the church has done so I have removed that section. I am NOT claiming that my view on these statement reflects the truth of the situation - merely my own personal experience as a member.

If I believe that a statement DOES apply to the church AS I SAW IT I will colour it GREEN.

If I believe that a statement DOESN'T apply to the church AS I SAW IT, or that I was not exposed to such a teaching I will colour it RED.

If I believe that a statement DOES apply to the church AS I SAW IT and applies to other "Christian denominations" as well I will colour it BLUE.


What harm has the church done? Lots. Here's a sample list by category:

1. Economic

a. The church demands that its members pay it ten percent of their income, whether they can afford it or not.

b. The church encourages couples to have more children (and sooner) than they normally would, again whether they can afford it or not.

c. The church mandates that its young men spend two years of their prime trying to convert new members, instead of going to school, building a career or even doing charitable work.

NB - 1a - Many churches require 10% of your income - it's a tithe - and it's biblically based.
NB - 1c - Young people go on "missions" AFTER they have completed school (usually before the start university). It's basically just an unpaid working OE, and the missionaries have often saved for the trip their entire childhoods.

2. Psychological

a. The church teaches same-sex-oriented people that they inherently evil.

b. The church instills in its members the notion that they are never good enough, no matter what they do. This has led Utah to be the anti-depressant capital of the U.S.

c. The church teaches that repentance is a long, difficult or sometimes impossible process. Young people are taught that being sexual before marriage will ruin them permanently. Masturbation guilt is heaped upon vulnerable adolescents.

d. Magical thinking is lauded while critical thinking skills are suppressed. Members are taught thought control techniques to keep them from doubting their leaders.

e. Women are taught that they are second class citizens, put on the earth to bear children and serve men.

f. The church teaches its members to lie to themselves and others, while justifying that the actions are part of some "greater good".

NB - 2a - "Inherently evil" from an original sin perspective only and that homosexuality is a sin - only to the same extent as practically every traditional Christian faith group.

3. Family Values

a. The church teaches that families are the most important thing in the universe, but what is actually promoted is an "eternal family" in a next life, not here and now.

b. Because of the above, Mormons are taught to shun people who do not share their beliefs, including other family members. A believing spouse is often counseled to divorce a non-believing one.

c. Parents are given many church jobs which cause them to spend a lot of time away from their own families.

d. Older members are encouraged to "use up" the remainder of their lives serving the church. Time and money a grandparent would normally spend on their children and grandchildren is squandered for the organization. As others have noted, this program should rightly be called "Where's Grandpa?".

NB - 3a - The concept of an eternal family is definitely a focus of the church, but the statements made there are just wrong.
NB - 3b - Mormon families are often very keen on contact with non-believers, often inviting troubled teens into their homes to live for example. The advice for believers and non-believers not to be "yoked together" is biblical and stems from the idea that one's personal salvation is more important than an earthly relationship - therefore being with a partner that could take you away from the church is a risk.
NB - 3c - Yup - and it's a real shame.
NB - 3d - I've never heard of this but maybe it is true.

AbriannaPeto

In my old super mormon neighborhood that was all entirely true. When I quit going to church my best friend (Who was in a family of 13) stopped being my friend, as well as bassically all my other friends, because I was no longer religious, even though we had been best friends since we were 4. The Mormon church can be an awful thing sometimes. BUT once they paid some of my medical bills for breaking my foot-- when I used to be a member. I hate it how most mormos are all conseritive and shy, like they are so afraid of god they can't be out going. I couldn't imagine being like that...

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Not all 'young people' listen to the media.

AbriannaPeto

Although that it is true that some christian churches are against homosexuals, most are not. Every single christian I know is not against homosexuals, and believe that they should be allowed to marry.

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Not all 'young people' listen to the media.

GraceAbounds

First I want to say that no Christian church I have been to teaches any of these things.

Second I will address each one individually.
The Bible states that homosexual activities are a sin and the church of course teaches God's Word. The church does not however teach that homosexuals are evil. If you are in a church that does, I would highly suggest you correcting it's wrong stance or leaving that church.

Again, if you are in a church that teaches this, then change their stance based on Biblical perspective or leave. No one is ever ruined permanently with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. A person that has sex before marriage may be hurting themselves, hurting others, disobeying God (sinning), but it does not mean they are ruined permanently.

The Bible specifically teaches the opposite of this. So again if you are in a church teaching this, please lovingly set them straight.

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hottubho

Andre

I don't think the Mormon church teaches that homosexual or bisexual people are inherently evil either - that's why I made the note "only from an original sin perspective" - i.e. that we are naturally inclined to sin. Neither the Mormon church or any other church I have ever been in has claimed in my presence that homosexual practices were the doings of an "evil person" - but were a sin. All I meant by the blue on that comment is that the extent to which Mormons denounce the practice hasn't seemed different to the way it has been treated in the mainstream churches I have attended.

I have been in a large, accepting and quite liberal Presbytarian church service, run by a very nice youngish minister and heard him advise young people not to have sex before they were married or they would be "shop-soiled". That is what I meant by ruined - not that it would ever ruin your chance of salvation of course.

I have also been in a few different churches which have talked about the yoking of a believer to an unbeliever and that if such a relationship was likely to result in a loss of faith that it would be better to leave the relationship.

GraceAbounds

Gotcha.

Sorry to hear that.

I can see that for folks that are not married yet. But for folks that are married, that is a different story.

* This is why it is so important for people that are serious about their spirituality to read and study God's Word for themselves. One needs to be able to identify if they are in a church that is teaching anything less than or more than God's Word. And when issues come up like this, we should feel comfortable to lovingly question the teacher in order to understand God's Word and also to take seriously the role of 'teacher of God's Word'. God forbid them to lead people astray. We should read, pray, and check things out for ourselves and measure it against God's Word and other mature believers that are visibly bearing fruit.

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Chieftan

Allegations, minor axis. Allegations means allegadly. Not factual. And it said in that comment you first made "Granted, it is BIASED." Now dont get me wrong, i dont condone mormones either. but ultimataly. Everybodys got their own fucked up philosiphy, even you and me. and as long as theyre not hurting anybody. i dont care. even if they want to be polygamist. Now, elders having relationsionships with teens. Now thats something i think may be questionable and worth talking bout, nothing virtous there, but is it true or not?

Minor Axis

I don't care about polygamy either unless it involves elders having relations with minors. But some say that is what polygamy is all about. See this thread.

__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

Andre

Polygamy was a practise of the Mormon church a long long time ago. It is not currently condoned by the main organisation or promoted as a practise by the Mormon church. There are small break-away groups (as in any religion really) that pick and choose their own rules and sometimes refer to themselves as Mormons.

HOWEVER! I am only referring to sexual earthly relationships. As a child I was exposed to an idea that men could be "bonded" in some way to multiple partners who would join them in the next life as "wives". I was never given specific information about this process and don't know the truth of it.

And there was certainly never any physical contact with minors in my experience and there is no way the organisation would condone such behaviour.

More damaging concepts in Mormonism are that in some sense God the Father used to be a man (in another universe?) and that humans on Earth who became Mormons and were very pious could expect to follow a progression after death that would see them on a par with God the Father - in complete control of their own systems. This was the impression I got as a young (but reasonably smart and inquiring) person.