Sylviane88

Hi bro

St. Anselm of Canterbury said that it was necessary for God to come down and pay the penalty for sin because the penalty was so great. Who died on the cross? If God, then who ran the world? But if man, then how could the sacrifice of one man pay for the whole world?

If someone pays my fine, even if I do not like that person, then the government can no longer demand payment from me. If Jesus paid my debt, then God can no longer demand it from me. How could God still punish sinners after Jesus died for us all.

The Bible says that Jesus was a ransom sacrifice who died to set us free. Is this ransom paid to God or to the Devil? If to God, then why did God kill his own son to set us free when he could have just set us free and keep his son? If the ransom was paid to the devil, then how could the devil be on such great bargaining terms with God to demand his very son?

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NicAuf

One thing I know is that it hurt.

GraceAbounds

The following story I posted makes the answers to your questions easy to understand.

God does not want to force us to love Him, he wants us to choose to love Him.

Enjoy the read.

There was once a man who didn't believe in God, and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays, like Christmas. His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus, despite his disparaging comments. One snowy Christmas Eve, his wife was taking their children to a Christmas Eve service in the farm community in which they lived. She asked him to come, but he refused.

"That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man? That's ridiculous!" So she and the children left, and he stayed home.

A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard. As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm. He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump. Something had hit the window. Then another thump. He looked out, but couldn't see more than a few feet.

When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window. In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese. Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and couldn't go on. They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter. They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly. A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed.

The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them. The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought. It's warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm. So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide, then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside.

The geese just fluttered around aimlessly and didn't seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them. The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them and they moved further away. He went into the house and came back out with some bread, broke it up, and made a breadcrumbs trail leading to the barn, but they still didn't catch on.

Now he was getting frustrated. He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn, but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn. Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe.

"Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed. "Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?" He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human.

"If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud.
Then he had an idea. He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese. He then released it. His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn - and one by one the other geese followed it to safety!

He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind:

"If only I were a goose, then I could save them!" Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier. "Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!"

Suddenly it all made sense. That is what God had done. We were like the geese - blind, lost, and perishing. God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us. That was the meaning of Christmas, he realized!

As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought. Suddenly he understood what Christmas was all about, why Christ had come.

Years of doubt and disbelief vanished like the passing storm. He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer:

"Thank You, God, for coming in human form
to get me out of the storm!" ~ Author Unknown ~

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wildcat52

1. the whole God/Man thing is so confusing!!! Some believe it was God in man form...
i personally dont. but thats okay. i dont know enough about that one to form an opinion. Sorry

2. Jesus did die for all. He paid a debt for those who truly believe he died and try to live their life the best that they can. God clearly doesnt promise eternal life for those who dont believe in it. if they think it's bullshit and rebuke it, then, i'm sorry but what is there to give. God gives his son and we cant even give an honest try. even if its just living a good life. im not saying nonbelievers dont have morals. most have some sense of mral. but i am talking about if someone doesnt even believe Jesus paid that debt,then how can they expect to receive eternal life/

3. the whole point of God giving his own son, is because it demonstrates the deepest point of love.
i love FEW people enough that i would give my own life for them. jesus gave his life for us.
but there isnt one person i love enough to where i would give my child's life for them. and thats what God did


hope this doesnt insult you.. just responding

Minor Axis

As symbolic as this story might be, only problem as an analogy is that the geese simply followed another goose as an option in a bad environmental situation. And even if the man had coaxed the geese into the barn by wearing a goose outfit, the result would be the same. The offer was for survival, not salvation. Of course I have no idea what geese think about. Maybe they were heading for "the light" in the barn.

No offense intended, but your argument is conjecture and wishful thinking also known as "faith".

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

wildcat52

lol well i was giving a "believers" outlook on it.
hence the topic religion.
christians tend to like that :-P ;-)

Minor Axis

BTW, I always find it amusing when one religion tries to out logic another (referring to the thread author). I really wish I knew more about Islam so I could show I'm an unbiased questioner. However I do remember the author saying he could prove Islam was the right religion to follow.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

GraceAbounds

More rep points for the obvious.

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Minor Axis

Just don't argue these issues as fact when they are matters of faith. That was and is my point.

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

GraceAbounds

You are in the faith section, so don't expect people not to talk about faith as if it were not fact. It is fact to those that experience it.

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Neflhiem

not to argue or counter point.. but isnt this the Debate section, subsection Religion? Interesting read thus far.

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GraceAbounds

Religion is synonymous with faith.

Don't expect folks (well you can, but you'll be disappointed) of Religion or Faith (whatever you wish to call it) to not talk about their spiritual experiences and/or studies as if they were not fact. It isn't going to happen.

People of faith understand that what they are saying is not considered fact to unbelievers, but they are not going to speak as though it is not fact just to satisfy others unbelief. Once one has experienced changes in their life due to God's Word and work in their life, they won't deny their experiences as fact, thus they will not treat the Word of God as anything less.

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valley

Yes! This is the best post I have seen in a long time!

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Minor Axis

I see your point except that arguing faith as fact gains no traction debating someone who is using real facts to make points. Just because someone feels something, does not make it a fact and even religious people who sincerely believe can and should acknowledge they are not in a "fact" based realm. Acknowledging that these feelings are faith based strengthens the position. Using pseudo facts diminishes the position of the religious argument imo.

However I'll also acknowledge that arguing religion based on logic is really a waste of time. There really are no facts to argue, just faith and feelings. So why am I in here debating it??

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"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

GraceAbounds

What has happened in my life is a fact. Just because you have not experienced it does not make it any less of a fact.

I'm not talking about feelings, nor did I state anything about feelings in my previous post. I am talking about factual experiences that have taken place in a believer's life. Again, just because you have not experienced it in your life does not make it any less of a fact in someone elses, it just makes it harder for you to grasp.

Wrong, which is exactly what I was trying to explain to you. Believers are not going to deny something as fact when something factual has taken place in their life. And they are also not going to deny the source of what brought their factual experience into existence.

The change may start out as faith based, but for those that actually hear, see, and experience the spiritual realm, it turns their perspective to one of fact and truth. There is no one more miserable than the person that has experienced God up close and personal and has turned away from Him.

And not experiencing God diminishes the position of an unbeliever's argument against faith imo as they have nothing spiritual to base their argument on. Quite frankly they haven't a clue what they are talking about.

I don't know why people that have no faith want to argue it, it has never made sense to me. They are arguing something they don't understand and haven't experienced.

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