Originally Posted by HottyToddyChick

Don't you think there is someone somewhere praying to their god for someone to die? Look at the Middle East. They think they are doing "God's will", don't they?

Originally Posted by IntruderLS1

Oh, I see the problem. Both posts are actually the same article. I just had to split it in two due to caracter limits.

My bad. I'll edit my earlier post for clarity tomorrow (Not right now, to give you a chance to check my time stamp. )

Originally Posted by All Else Failed

I'm not talking about bad things though. I'm talking about good prayer, "Help my father with cancer" prayer.

Originally Posted by Magic P

I will come back to this when I got time. Exams are in a week time. Sorry buddy.

Originally Posted by memento_mori

"So Why Doesn't God Answer Every Prayer?" was some good writing, intruder. so good i would have believed you wrote it



i hadn't heard this quote before. i like it.

i also appreciate the star trek references.

tho i'm going to have to comment on the last paragraph



it's that kind of thinking that makes me reject "everything has a reason" and god's plan. stories are subjective. experiences are subjective. everything is subjective, and to say we finally understand the reason behind something, and that your conclusion is objective truth, is arrogant (as magic p would say). there's a lot to be said for knowing you can be wrong. obviously there are other interpretations someone can make about the passage, just because your conclusion is pretty and it matches up doesn't make it correct.

Originally Posted by icecuban

it is good to be questionable, or else you have no filter. but when u say what u say, its like saying there is no truth at all. that since it is all subjective and individual, then nothing can be said on anything. even wanting to say something is wrong is an imposibility. i think if something is pretty, but in the sense of pretty f@$%ing awsome, then i say go with it, or else there will be nothing to hold on to. i know this has to do with "reasons", but as a whole, i think that if we could give a reason, it would be a good one. existance has created a mind that seeks reason....but does it do that for no reason? i doubt it

Originally Posted by All Else Failed

I'm not talking about bad things though. I'm talking about good prayer, "Help my father with cancer" prayer.

Originally Posted by memento_mori

feeling a bit pissed. so if i sound offensive in this post, i probably am.

sorry that u were pissed off. I tried not to take things seriously and personally unless someone was being provocative; and even though sometimes I sounded like I was annoyed, I was actually not.

i'm sorry to see you shy away from my responses.

I didn't shy away from your responses. Sorry I should have read the posts more carefully. I was trying to study and read at the same time, so I was just browsing it.

prayer doesn't make you reflect on yourself, reflecting on yourself makes you reflect on yourself. praying and reflecting on yourself are two separate, independent things that can and do exist with out each other.

That's true. I was just saying praying is one form of reflection.

we have not gotten off track, there is a point to our questions and criticisms. this thread is about the benefits and effectiveness of prayer, and why it seems to help some but not others. you say it's because some people aren't praying correctly, we're saying prayer doesn't have any effect on physical events.

I think the people who did experience the effectiveness of prayers or got their prayers answered would tell you no; while others would agree with you. My opinion is that prayers only work when you are simply having a conversation with God, not just asking him to do things for you; and he didn't for some reasons, don't get mad at him cuz that's just childish.

i think what you said was blatantly offensive. not that you don't have a right to be blatantly offensive, i just think shying away from responses, refusing to accept that your statement was offensive, and not giving reasonable explanation behind it takes away from your credebility.



i definitely agree people can be stubborn at times. maybe even stupid. anyway, here's to more stubborn stupidity.



then what logic can you justify things like the flood, the mauling of children, and seemingly illogical maliciousness attributed to god in the bible? if it's not today's logic, or yesterday's logic, then it is illogical. you have to have some logic for it to be a plan. intruder says the mass murder of people in the flood is justified because their souls and our souls were saved, and that it would have been much worse had all those people survived. that is extremely difficult to swallow, and i can see intruder's hesitation in accepting that.

i don't think you can honestly believe that logic though for all the violence specifically in the old testament. which is another debate, but the criticism still stands that "god's plan" has some fucked up stuff in it, praying isn't going to change god's plan, and god's plan is going to have more fucked up stuff that you're not going to agree with.
this leads to two conclusions:

1.) god's plan is too smart for us to understand the fucked up things that happen, we just have to pray and hope god knows best.

God made his plan very clear. It's up to us to accept it or not. Fucked up things happened everyday due to human action. Why don't you blame human?

2.) there is no plan, shit happens to you whether you pray or not, and the best way for you to change your situation to the way you want it is to change it yourself. keyword: you.

rape and murder are wrong. killing a bunch of people because they were gambling too much, having sex too much, not worshiping god enough, and general sinning is wrong. again: killing a bunch of people for nothing is wrong. i don't care how many bunnies and giraffes god saved in the flood, i don't care that god made the no killing rule so maybe he has the right to break it, there is nothing you can say that changes the black and white that says god killed countless people through a flood and other illogical malice.

in the example of ted bundy, you can argue that his raping and killing was all part of a greater good, but it isn't going to change the fact that his raping and killing was wrong. you can argue that god's bad actions were part of a greater good, but they are still wrong. which contradicts the idea that god and his plan are always right.

what, are you going to say his wrong actions were the right choices because not killing a bunch of men, women, and children would have resulted in a worse world for us? how do you know? is it that whatever happens is god's choice and since god's choice is always right whatever just happened must be a blessing from god?

my cat just died because it was sick. must be god's plan. good thing god blessed me with the death of my cat, it might have raped a baby or something. hmm, i'm feeling a bit sad now that my potentially baby-raping cat is dead, i better pray to make sure i stick with god's plan. *pray* oh noes! now my house just burned down from a forest fire. it's still for the best, though. gotta keep up with god's plan. hey, now no one is rebuilding my house for me. wtf? don't people realise their choice of free will to help me is part of god's plan? blah! now ted bundy is raping me. must be the free will, because god's plan wouldn't be this cruel.

Originally Posted by Magic P